ADDED: This post that was started on Friday has a great discussion in the comments about prepping a home for sale and what to spend money on, so I’m “bumping” this post up to the top so more people will see it. John
==================================
The post below on remodeling before selling had a ton of comments.
I invited the commenter, Rob, to send me a photo of the kitchen he was asking about. His question was about replacing a kitchen counter top with granite tile for $3K.
What is your advice for Rob…
In the email that contained the photo Rob said;
Thanks for the quick response to my question regarding the remodel article. The attached pic of my kitchen actually looks good. In person the counters look even worse. The tile I am considering is Benissimo. If you’re not familiar with it, it’s prety neat. Check it out at www.benissimosystems.com. For my kitchen it’s about 3k vs 7k for granite slab.
The rest of the house is in great shape with new carpet, tile floors, new fire place, remodeled pool, window treatments, newer appliances, etc.
I have some qualms about putting granite on top of the outdated oak cabinets. I don’t know if the oak can support it, monetarily and style wise. Is it (very expensive) lipstick on a pig?
Another concern is that white appliances don’t go with granite in my opinion.
Also, that style of light fixture is a big turn off for a lot of buyers.
Of course it’s hard to give good advice without knowing the home or at least the price range.
I lean towards doing nothing to the kitchen except cleaning the grout if it needs it. Right now, in this photo, the kitchen hangs together style-wise. It may be dated but it looks clean and functional.
If I were to do one thing it might be to replace the light fixture with cans or something more up-to-date. Otherwise, I think we could be looking at a complete makeover for the kitchen. Another option to consider would be to reface the cabinets in addition to adding new counter tops, however, that might make the white appliances look out of place.
It’s a tough one.
If the counter top is damaged and really needs to be replaced, I wonder if a less expensive option than granite would be better.
AZ Short Sales, how would you flip this kitchen?
{ 15 comments… read them below or add one }
AZ Short Sales 12.07.07 at 5:42 pm
Well, I agree with you. I really need more details- price range of house (fully fixed up), what’s the budget for the remodel, what’s the goal of the remodel, what’s the size of the property, etc. Get me more details and I can make a better judgment. Other than that- I agree- Oak cabinets says 80s-90s. White appliances says 90’s. That light fixture is DEFINITELY 80’s. Countertops HAVE TO go. Without knowing the budget- I would spend about $5k-7k in there. $2-3k in new, cherry wood cabinets with a cherry stain, new countertops, new appliances, and definitely a new light fixture! That may be out of the budget. Here’s an option- there’s a ‘covering’ I’ve seen done for countertops. Basically, they ‘wrap’ this material over the existing top, and it looks just like granite. It’s cheaper than granite, more durable, and cleaner. Also less maintenance on it. I’ll have to find out the name of the stuff and post back- my father in law put it in his kitchen and it looks great. But, it’s almost an entire package deal here. If cabinets were out of the question- maybe look at re-surfacing them. If that’s out of the question, at least replace the countertop- and get a WOMAN’S opinion on what is the best color to choose to match those cabinets! I’d say, at bare minimum, countertops and light fixture MUST go. Here’s a good point- what do those tiles remind you of? Yes, you got it- a public restroom. YUCK. Get my point? That’s exactly what people will think when they see that kitchen. Oh- another cheapie upgrade (which, to be honest, I’ve never personally done it, but have seen others do it) is to mount nice door handles/hardware on those cabinets. Either way- get me more details and I can give you more certainties.
Cindy 12.07.07 at 5:56 pm
I’m one of those that things granite on old cabinets is a no-no. Take out the light and install some cans and then go with Corian counters and call it a day. The appliances are okay for this style kitchen. Now if you tell me this kitchen is in a 2M property then I might have a different answer. It looks like the kitchen I had when I lived in AZ.
Frank 12.07.07 at 7:12 pm
Rob,
I would just replace the ugly light fixture and the counter tops with granit, leave the cabinets the way they are. The appliances look fine, I do not think you need to replace them. I know AZ Short Sales looks at the full picture because this is what he do for a living (I would still listen to him), but from a home owners point it of view this is all what I would do if I want to minimize my expenses.
AZ Short Sales 12.07.07 at 7:22 pm
Yeah, I agree. It depends on what his intentions are. Keep in mind- ultimately, time is money. If you wanted to sell your house, and your mortgage was $2k/mo… and you knew that you could spend $6k now to get it sold right away, or, not spend the $6k and wait for 3 months to sell- which route would you take? uh-huh- most of us would spend the $6k now. However- it greatly depends on what the goal is of performing any rehab whatsoever, as well as all the other details that play major factors in this scenario. I look forward to more details about this one…
Rob 12.07.07 at 10:07 pm
The house was built in 1985 it’s about 2300 sq located near Tatum and Greenway in NE Phoenix. $430,000 would price it in the middle of the pack based on recent comps.
As I mentioned the kitchen is it’s only downfall. My intent is to sell the house quickly (few months).
The counters definately need to be replaced. They look worse in person. The grout is seperating in a couple areas and the tile is more yellow than it appears.
A full kitchen remodel is out of budget.
AZ Short sale, you mention 5-7 k for counters, re finished cabinets, light fixtures and appliances. Could you elaborate? I’d definately be interested. Do you know someone?
It is a tough call as you mentioned John, it’s definately a pig in need of a full make over.
Thanks for all the help.
Kathleen 12.07.07 at 10:27 pm
Just lost a long post. Here’s a recap…
Glaze the cabinets with one step/one coat minwax polyurthane: http://www.minwax.com/products/onestep/Polyshades-color.cfm — Pick cherry or mahogany or this can be done in color too, like blue or green, not sure the brand for color but it’s out there. Just test to ensure it takes out that ugly yellow tone going on now. Spray the doors (take them down to do that) but foam brush the surrounds as you’ll never notice brush marks there. Put some stainless handles on but that does add up unless you know how to shop for them.
Drop granite - too expensive, too needy (sealing, special cleaners, etc.) . Instead get ~89 cent to $1.50/ft porcelain that looks like slate or travertine or other stone. Floor ‘n Decor — Get 16 or 18″ tiles of the type with no edge grooves so they butt up and use 1/8″ grouting. Forget ugly bullnose and just have the tiles at counter edge honed. Put a little cut drop strip up under that honed edge and stain the honed edge if it’s too light.
Spend some time/money on the backsplash - metallic paint is cheap but very cool, a strip of metal or glass tiles would be nice. Vivid color too - people are sick of beige. This can go all around that window too making a bigger impact. Something to draw the eye away from the weaker things.
Your appliances can be repainted - google it there are people who provide that service.
Replace the light with a couple of those sunlight tubes which can also hold electric fixtures for night time. Bonus: you can market as green. If you can’t, paint that trim white to blend at the very least.
John Wake - Real Estate 12.08.07 at 6:33 am
Rob,
You’re getting a lot of great ideas here!
With that neighborhood, price range and the condition of the rest of the house, I think you want, if at all possible, to do the full nine yards along the lines of what AZ Short Sales or the other commenters suggested. It will easily pay for itself if you can do it quickly, with good quality at a good price.
Finding good tradesmen is probably the hardest part. Perhaps other commenters can help you there.
AZ Short Sales 12.08.07 at 7:02 am
Well, it’s a tough call without seeing the actual size of the kitchen. The picture can be misleading. But, I have to completely disagree with Kathleen’s ideas (doesn’t mean she’s right or wrong tho). Here’s what I would do, if you haven’t done this before. Go walk into new home construction models in the $500-550k+ price range (with all their incentives, it brings the prices down to mid-400’s). That’s your competition. Look at their kitchens. Tell me if you see tile countertops w/ stained oak cabinets. When people buy a resale, they want it to feel like a new home- they’ve already been looking at new home construction before they walk into your house. Granite tile counters can pass off as a decent upgrade- but the price you were thinking, you can get slab for the same. I definitely wouldn’t put floor tile on my counters. However, there ARE a bunch of other alternatives out there. Go to a local Home Depot or Lowes (or both!) and check out the other types of counters they have now- pretty cool stuff out there, and should be cheaper than Granite Slab (I still say stick with Granite tho- it’s impressive and sells homes).
Now, to be honest, I’ve never had cabinets re-surfaced, so I don’t know how that would turn out. I’ve been meaning to try it in an upcoming rehab, just haven’t done it yet. In this market, you have to give people more for their money than anyone else in the area, so I upgrade instead of paint lipstick. I, personally, wouldn’t do it myself. The last thing you need is an amateur job- that makes your kitchen MUCH worse than it is now. So, I have mixed feelings on re-surfacing- it might work, it might not. I always just replace.
Ummm, the SolaTubes Kathleen mentions- some people like them, others don’t. I’d DEFINITELY not put them in the kitchen tho! That’s a turn-off to most buyers, and you take a big risk hoping to find the right buyer who also wants those in the kitchen. Those are great for closets, hallways, bedrooms, maybe even living rooms- but kitchens need VERY bright light. And I mean VERY bright. Max out the lighting. I’d take down that acrylic cover and wood trim. You should have a recess up in there. See how deep that is- if it’s about 1′ or more, that could be an interesting architectural factor. Just whatever you do with the lighting, make it very appealing to the eye to look at, definitely take down that plastic cover and wood trim, and make it bright as daylight in there.
I’m going to write a post over at my website- many of my investor clients need to hear and read about this as well. I’ll give a ton more details at that time- and post back when it’s completed. Hope this helps!
AZ Short Sales 12.08.07 at 8:30 am
ok guys, Rob- I just posted an article on my site about how I would handle this project. All said and done, about $7-8k, depending on what he chooses to do. Certainly less if resurfacing the cabinets instead. Please post comments and let me know your thoughts! It’s hard to say without seeing the house (every house has it’s own style, and you gotta go off of that)- but this is what I do to sell my flips soo quickly.
Kathleen 12.08.07 at 12:16 pm
AZ Short Sales, you make some good points and I’m sure your approach works well for you. However, the point of my post was to show that a visual “fluff up” for an older kitchen can be done without spending a lot of money. Just like the idea of repainting the interior or pouring $500 into landscape for the entry, all relatively cheap but effective ways to make things LOOK better. Will my “fluff up” equal a complete kitchen remodel? Never. It’s an alternative, one that will help for those who don’t want to or can’t invest in a full remodel.
I’m a visual artist so appearances are very important to me. I notice details and harmonies and such much more than the average person does. If you can make a plain boring room appear much more soothing and attractive to the eye - even without spending a small fortune - you will please more people than if you do nothing. Would I like full granite, new cherry cabinets and fancy full wall glass tile accents more than a fluff up? You bet, but I based my post on what Rob said in one of his replies — he was looking to get a refreshed kitchen for about $3-$5K, not to spend that much just on the countertop.
Also consider: most people shopping are thinking about which upgrades they will make for every home they view — whether upgraded paint/flooring/landscaping in a brand new home or a kitchen remodel in an older home. Not everyone is scoping out model homes, expecting to get the same level in resale homes. That just doesn’t make sense because not everyone wants to live in a new development which makes it like comparing apples to oranges. There are many reasons to buy resale over new, the least of which is the desire to move into an established community rather than a virtual moonscape with no established community soul and vibrancy. Just because the dumb builders have overbuilt and are now desperately giving away too much to entice buyers doesn’t mean they will succeed with that approach. So I guess I’m saying that your competition is not necessarily the new homes, or at least not for every prospect.
Another point: if you remodel the whole nine yards, selecting dark cabinets and light counters, you will inevitably find that 50% of your prospects will not like your choice and would prefer light cabinets and dark counters. That’s just the breaks. I know from experience. If you really believe a buyer “needs” a kitchen remodel as the ultimate incentive, offer that in your terms like the builders are doing - say a $5 - $10K “bonus” to apply to THEIR remodel.
But I wouldn’t do that because I still think that for $3K+/- Rob could do a nice fluff up with a dark mahogany or cherry glaze on the cabinets to put some drama in that room, install some good quality (have to be picky!) stone look large size close butted/no grout line style tile for an updated clean crisp counter, and jazz up his backsplash with something luxe. This would go a long way to making a pleasing impression for prospects. Will they love it all? Probably not. But will it be better than what is there? Most definitely, even if he leaves the white appliances as is.
I have seen several marble tile (12” run $3-$5/ft) countertops that are beautiful and also installed in upper end homes - a great stone look tile can be just as nice as granite tiles but even easier on the budget. Soapstone, flagstone, travertine are all natural stone alternatives to natural granite. Those stone looks seem to be more realistic when done as faux stone tile while faux granite is not very realistic at all. And those corian type tops, ick! Talk about looking plastic and fake - quality faux stone tile is way better looking and much less costly especially if you can do the work. The keys are extra large tiles, very tiny grout lines, no indentations at the tile edges so they can butt together smoothly and good quality faux look…
I love your thoughts on ripping out the plastic and wood trim on that light to find the recess space as architectural accent. But I’m puzzled how people could hate Sola tubes that when installed are flush mount and look just like large 8” recessed canisters w/lens. Lights can be installed in them so that would light the room - I agree light must be MAXIMUM in the kitchen. Doing multiples tubes might be too pricey for Rob’s budget though so maybe another approach would be better.
I also agree wholeheartedly that if Rob can’t do a quality job, he should definitely hire someone qualified to do it. DH and I are pretty self sufficient so I just think along those lines naturally. I also think more people could DIY if they really wanted to and took the time to learn how to do it properly. Lots of great books at the library that cover all aspects of this stuff if interested. Bottom line is the $ saved on labor becomes equity and you learn and improve for the next project - just make sure the result is decent quality or you’re just fooling yourself.
I’m off to read your article now….
AZ Short Sales 12.08.07 at 3:12 pm
Kathleen-
Maybe I mis-understood Rob’s post. I thought he said was he was thinking of spending $3k on counter tops, and wanted to sell quickly- in just a few months. I’m open that I’ve missed his point. I agree with you, doing SOMETHING can be better than nothing, or it can be worse if you do a bad job or make the wrong decision (like painting the back splash the wrong color, for example). However, most everyone will agree that doing a full kitchen remodel will sell his house FASTER than ones that don’t. I also agree that not everyone wants a brand new home, they like the matureness of the landscaping and HOA. However, with the incentives going on now, and the lending programs they’re offering, I’m seeing most buyers are at least ‘checking them out’ regardless. Where I disagree with you is that doing a $500 ‘fluff up’ will dramatically enhance Rob’s kitchen- enough to sell in a few months. Here’s the way I see it- he’s going to pay the money one way or another- either by putting the money into the remodel, or, dropping his price.
Statistics have shown time and time again that giving the buyer’s ‘credits’ or ‘incentives’ towards remodels are often more costly than doing the remodel ahead of time. Most any decent Realtor® will agree with me there. The studies will also show that most home buyers cannot easily visualize the home in remodeled status, so they never make an offer on the property. Additionally, most buyer’s don’t want to go through the trouble of having their house torn up while living there and having the kitchen (of all places) remodeled. What a nightmare. So, they never offer on it. Think about it- would you want to purchase a property, move in, and then wait weeks for the kitchen to be remodeled? Or house painted? Or new carpets/flooring to be installed? No, it’s a nightmare. And, if you ARE going to be forced to do that yourself, you better get a smoking deal on the property to compensate for your time and inconvenience of doing the project. Hence, buyer’s who are willing to go through that will offer LESS MONEY than Rob would have to spend if he did it ahead of time.
Put it this way- if there were two houses that were exactly the same, only one of them was priced at $420k and needed $10k worth of remodeling done, or the other was priced at $430k and just had the same remodel completed, but it’s done and ready to go (which, Rob only paid $5k for)- which would you choose? Yup. So does everyone else in the world. UNLESS the house is priced more like $400k, then people will consider it! There’s the difference. So essentially, Rob will end up paying the price, most likely a lot more, if he doesn’t do it himself.
Here’s the other factor int he equation- holding time. Everyone forgets about this one. How many more months is he going to sit on the market waiting for a buyer because his house looks just like all the others out there? Let’s say 2-3 (I believe much longer, but I’ll give your 2-3 months). If his mortgage payment, insurance, utilities, etc cost him $2500/mo- that’s $7500 he’s spent on his house, just sitting and waiting. He SAVES that money (most likely applies it right to his new home) if he sells 2-3 months faster. So, it’s easy to see why I say go ahead, spend the $7500 on the remodel and get it sold NOW.
But don’t take my word and experience for it- ask numbers of Realtors®, read the studies, and tell me what you come up with. I agree, doing a little something will help (if it’s the right something to begin with)- but I think putting $500 into a $430k house won’t go too far to getting it sold in a few weeks. Maybe in a $150-200k house, but not in Rob’s area/price range.
Rob 12.08.07 at 6:58 pm
Wow,
Thanks everyone for all the help. This has been a real dilemma for me.
The kitchen really does need a complete make over. The problem is the cost of course. I would gladly shell out $7-8k for new cabinets, slab granite, lights, and appliances.
I received two quotes for slab granite; both were from retail stores. Both quotes were close to 7k. The kitchen is fairly large. There is 90 sq. ft of counter space with 40 liner ft. of counter edge. The front face of the cabinets is about 52’ including over head cabinets. There is also a 2.5′ x 7′ pantry. This does not include cabinet sides or back.
Kathleen, I like your idea of staining the cabinets and I get your point. If I can’t do a full remodel spend a little money on each of the problem areas. Instead of just “lipstick on the pig”, A decent dress and makeup would certainly help.
Kathleen 12.08.07 at 11:41 pm
Hi AZ SS,
Just wanted to point out I was thinking of a $3-$5K “fluff up”, not a $500 one as you wrote — that would barely cover materials for the counter alone. I think you read this comparison I made in the first paragraph:
“….a visual “fluff up” for an older kitchen can be done without spending a lot of money. Just like the idea of repainting the interior or pouring $500 into landscape for the entry, all relatively cheap but effective ways to make things LOOK better. ”
But also missed this in the second paragraph:
“…I based my post on what I think Rob said in one of his replies — he was looking to get a refreshed kitchen for about $3-$5K, not to spend that much just on the countertop. ”
I think we agree he needs to do something to address all his “issues” in that kitchen to maximize his sales potential both in attracting buyers and in getting the sales price he’s set. We just advocate for different budgets and both have good reasons for that. I’m with the earlier poster who said she’d never put granite on old cabinets - it’s a waste and looks terrible. If you do the granite and then have to do new cabinets and then also the appliances plus the lights, well, Rob’s budget shoots way out of the range I thought he was looking for +/- $3K so I was offering ideas to accomplish a lot of impact for that kind of budget.
I think a summary of my 2 cents would be: appearance is quite a strong component of attraction. Appearance can be very much enhanced with good choices and refreshing/upgrades do not always require ripping it all out and starting over again. Also appearance is not always totally dependent upon specific materials being used (ie granite slab and cherry or maple). So if you can make something look really nice - whether you spend $3K or $10K or $30K- you’ll do better than just accepting the drawbacks you’re wrestling with.
FWIW, I agree also that without some major intervention (low budget or high budget), he will sit on this property longer and have to spend that monthly outlay you pointed out. Better to do something now to expedite the sale.
I wonder if this is his home or a spec house… Hey, Rob? Hope some of the ideas helped.
Rob 12.09.07 at 6:38 am
These ideas have really helped. This is my primary residence.
If I can do a complete remodel for 7-8 k that would clearly be the way to go. I had no idea it could be done in this price range.
If a full remodel can’t be done in this price range I will try your ideas. Once I’m done I’ll post some before and after pics.
Duluth Real Estate 12.14.07 at 9:53 am
Best of luck Rob.